Secular Right Versus Bharatiya – An Interaction

There is this new anomaly that is crystallizing in the wake of BJP’s election loss in 2009. This anomaly is essentially is a manifestation of half baked and ignorant efforts to describe India’s problems and suggest prescriptions that are not rooted in native realities.  Many of the people shaping the anomaly define themselves  based on western frame works – as right of center or conservative or or classical liberal, libertarian etc. Others would tend to call them as Sickular Right or HINO (Hindu in Name Only) or BINO (Bharatiya in Name Only) or IBCDs (Indian Born Confused Desis) or simply confused desis. Let us define these people and the anomalous positions they are projecting as Secular right, for convenience and also because  many of them seem to have discomfort asserting their native identity in public space or tend to believe that identities are best kept at home. Cunning among them some times wear a native facade exceedingly well (Mein Bi Hindu Hoon Deceit), but the mask slips as you learn their positions on substantive issues.

Secular-right position is manifested essentially by people who notice the reality that CON party sucks big time; and believe that Governance in India is abysmal. But these people though are not equipped well to understand the native narrative and that solutions rooted in native assertion are best placed to take India out of its institutionally corrupt sickular morass. Secular- right kind of anomalies that are poorly rooted in native realities tend to result in injecting Vishama to the discourse, just as porting nehruvian permit-license marxist cronyism and sickularism on India did. Ignorance coupled with arrogance is a failure recipe. Such positions by their very nature are anarchic.

The secular-right  anomaly different shades some of which are an outcome of subversion of India’s education system and of national narrative & national discourse done by British, and even more vehemently done subsequently by CON party sickos particularly note worthy of who was Nurul-Hasan, Human Resources Minister during Indira Gandhi’s term as PM. Certain shades of secular-right anomaly are also an outcome of people that have just had a monochromatic exposure to the west – reading works by the likes of Adam Smith and Fredrich Hayek but unfortunately not reading Anushasan Parv or the NitisSmritis from native sources; many tend to carry covert and overt disdain for native sanskaras and traditions.

Secular Right people because of their confused understanding have had a serious difficulty offering a coherent political paradigm to replace the failed sickular-cronyist narrative presented by Congress Party and Communists. Congress Party and Communists have monopolized the levers of discourse because of institutionalized support funded among others by the tax-payer and have sought to push their self serving canards as national narrative; Various shades of the failed sickular-cronyist narratives have tended to define themselves today as liberalism, progressivism, ummah socialism, liberation theology etc. The cunning ones among them, injecting Vishama, not suprisingly, have deployed native sounding names like Nalanda etc for their subversive initiatives. Another low cunning pretentious section peddles its anti-Hindu hate under the fig-leaf of secular right, center right etc.

Normative secular right people end up following the western conservative prescriptions. Most dont realize that the liberalist westconservative west, secular westlibertarian west were contextual to christian west and conjoin through the entity of church. Among the secular right people, a small minority find attractive paradigms offered by Hindutva-waadis – Savarkar, Hedgewar (Sangh Parivar) and the ones by Vivekananda (Narendranath), Ambedkar who all had social views that were not exactly dissimilar. This need not surprise, because many of Savarkar/Ambedkar views were rooted in a western reference frame. Their understanding of jati-varna systems was less than optimal and tended to be monochromatic and hostile. Dr. Hedgewar, it must be remembered too was associated with Dr Moonje, Savarkar and had links to Congress Party. Dr. Hedgewar and particularly Madhav Rao Golwalkar were also intimately connected to neo-vedantic initiatives by the likes of Vivekananda; BR Ambedkar turned to neo-buddhism.

This post highlights a remarkable effort at defining a native paradigm and specifically the dialog that took place between someone who takes what can be called a secular right position and person that takes Bharatiya Position rooted in native realities. Blogger Anuraag Sanghi has modeled an elaborate frame-work Bharat Tantra. And Anuraag’s blogpost generated a heated exchange between Jindal (Secular Right certitudes),  Incognito (Bharatiya) which is the subject of this blogpost and captured below. Jindal ends up showing typical ‘holier than thou‘ behavior and ends up getting chastened each time. He still does not give up. There were some other interesting comments too which are reproduced below. In the interests of brevity and relevance, some of the comments were edited and some of the comments in the original thread omitted.

Exchange will benefit everyone with a critical mind as long as they dont wear ideological blinkers – belief in dogma certitudes, sure tickets to disaster. (Ved – “Let Noble Thoughts come from every side”. Corollary – filter out Noxious Dogmas)

ROUND 1

Jindal said, on September 9, 2010 at 5:33 am

The Indian subcontinent has given undue importance to religion and hence deep fault lines like the partition among others exist today. In comparison, China and Europe are a lot more homogenous. The entire Indian subcontinent should wash off religious tendencies. Instead of dwelling on the past and singing glories of the past (like losers – even Pakis think they as in “Muslims” [not mughals] ruled India for a thousand years – it is also in their textbooks), every Indian should think like a winner and learn to live in the present, and invent for tomorrow.

Here’s a sampler of possibilities: http://intellectualventureslab.com/?page_id=258
Just in case you didn’t know, traveling wave reactors can convert these 36,000 cylinders of “waste” to $100 trillion worth of electricity.

samadhyayi said, on September 15, 2010 at 3:41 pm

indian subcontinent has not given undue importance to religion. it has given importance to truth. what religion are you talking about. religion, love , all these mean different things to different people.

so you want india united like china. for what .people unite to kill others.

no body is dwelling on the past and singing glories of the past.
proof:there are zero movies on india’s glorious past.
nobody knows even a 5% of india’s past glory.

if india does not remain india. this world is not worth living, not worth discussing, not worth creating. it becomes infinitely uninteresting. a mere anthill in the huge universe.

(Discussion warms up as you enter the subsequent rounds below)

ROUND 2

Jindal said, on September 9, 2010 at 4:47 pm

There is no reference to jati in the scriptures. Devolving from interpretations of varna, these were inventions added by some latter brahmins which resulted into a hybrid caste-profession ideology as jatis. This was perhaps to retain monopoly over Hindu society in the name of preserving bloodlines. To give you a sampler of twisted sharia like punishments recommended by the dubious brahmin writers of such laws was to pour molten red hot iron in the throats of untouchables for the crime of trying to be pious!!!

Genetically speaking, there are very minor variations of the Haplogroup R1a Y-DNA within all reaches of Indian ethnicities regardless of caste or the fictitious Aryan/Dravidian racial divide. All are swastika carrying south-asian caucasoids. There is no basis (scientific or philosophical) for the concept of a birth-based jati or varna per se. If varna or jati were to be interpreted as ‘profession’ based on one’s intellect and education, such a system has existed everywhere since time immemorial, and can’t be removed anywhere even if we wanted to.

As for the evolving master-slave bi-colored landscape based on class system that you mention, I’d say it’s gray-scale and not all that black-and-white. A capitalist system has existed through various civilizations and as long as it remains, there will be rich and poor. Resurrecting dharma or islam or even maoism for that matter won’t change a thing.

India and Pakistan are sitting on the riches of a demographic dividend but it is becoming a demographic debt primarily because the Indian subcontinent just can’t rid itself off the clutches of dharma and islam. I continue to recommend that the young invest more time studying science and technology instead of dharma. Become a scientist, not a pujari. I’ll provide personal guarantee that you won’t miss out on enlightenment or the pleasures of paradise~!

Anuraag Sanghi said, on September 12, 2010 at 9:06 am

On the jaati and varna ‘conflict.

Bharat-tantra is a living system, a growing, breathing, organism. An attractive system, which brought it admirers from the world over.

The ‘problem’ with success is that it needs to be shared. Entire communities would migrate to India.

1. Cleopatra wanted to ‘escape to India’ before she was captured and she killed herself.

2. Achamaneid Iran sent their rebellious Ionians (yavanas) to India to be civilized.

3. The mathishta of the Achamaneid Iran was trained in India – who made life hell for Alexander.

4. The khojas /and bohris came from Yemen.

5. The Parsis from Iran.

6. The Armenians were big saltpetre traders supplying to Central Asia and Byzantines /Ottomans.

Within India we have

a. Patriarchal

b. Matriarchal

c. Matrilineal systems of society

d. Vegetarians and non-vegetarians

e. Forest dwelling tribals with community property

India being an open system accomodated these Indian and foreign jaatis, who had ‘special’ skills.

So you see ‘clusters’ or the earlier equivalent of SEZs all over India.

1. Gunpowder in Bihar-Bengal;

2. Glass industry at Ferozabad;

3. Knives at Rampur;

4. Carpets at Badohi;

5. Zinc refining in Andhra that predated the West by some 500-1000 years – used in bidri work; etc.

Each of these industries /trade /craft needed

a. Training & skills

b. Lifestyle changes

c. Food habits

d. Specific commercial norms and practices

which would support the industry.

It would be tempting and easy for ‘critics’ to see this as ‘casteism’, calcification, oppression, ‘infringement’ of individual rights, et al.

1. The wheel of Bharat-tantra turned on the hub of power in the hands of people.

2. This power would come from easy migration.

3. Gold, stable family systems, land rights, small kingdoms, made migration easy.

4. Entire families and communities could vote with their feet and wealth.

Instead of seeing ‘freedom’ as an ‘ideal’, ‘absolute’, ‘distant’, always unattainable, Bharat-tantra works on moksh – maximum, attainable, defined, negotiated, freedom. Freedom here and freedom now.

What was Freedom – marriage, food – everything was negotiable.

Varna literature talks of varna-dharma. Laws, norms, practices as per the varna. So, no jaati, prajaati or varna conflict.

Conflict between jaatis and varna is based on viewing Bharat-tantra through a prism of assumptions, as follows:-

1. The Golden Age Syndrome – that there was a time, when a ‘pristine’, ‘pure’, pastoral form of this system existed – which has been ‘corrupted’.

2. This Golden Age Syndrome is an ideological trick to ‘explain’ the present and postpone changes to status quo.

Modern examples of this in Western ideology are the frauds of

1. Gold Standard

2. Racialism and ethnic cleansing

3. US Constitution

4. The US Federal Reserve et al.

The Quest for ‘Individual Freedom’. Without wealth, property, family, community support, all constitutional rights, freedoms are hot and fetid air. Western political system and thought specializes in promising these useless constitutional rights and freedoms. And then trampling these ‘freedoms’ to non-existence.

A simple human fact that children mostly follow their father’s professional footsteps or career direction given by the family. This is a simple fact of human behaviour – without needing labels like nepotism, casteism etc.

Bharat-tantra worked on communities and families, who would work for the aspirations of their members.

Jindal said, on September 12, 2010 at 11:09 pm

> The Quest for ‘Individual Freedom’. Without wealth, property, family, community support, all constitutional rights, freedoms are hot and fetid air. Western political system and thought specializes in promising these useless constitutional rights and freedoms. And then trampling these ‘freedoms’ to non-existence.

You seem to have never stepped out of the pond. Let me tell you that the United States does not have any such restrictions at all. You also seem to have some made up things in your head. After having felt the urge to free themselves from suppression of individual freedoms in other countries, people turn to the United States from all over the world to be able to exercise rights granted by the constitution. I’m yet to meet one individual who has regretted immigration. As I have said on your ‘quicktake’ blog, “ground reality” speaks louder than some limbless tantra-mantra rap.

> A simple human fact that children mostly follow their father’s professional footsteps or career direction given by the family. This is a simple fact of human behaviour – without needing labels like nepotism, casteism etc.

My neighbor is a government officer, wife is a trader, daughter an economist, and son a mechanic. And so is the case with a dozen other neighbors. No relation between occupations of members in a family. As I’ve pointed out earlier, the backward system you profess has problems — someone born in a supposedly high caste is likely to reserve the right to follow “father’s profession” (given that mom would be in a veil restricted to the kitchen), despite that person lacking aptitude, intelligence, and education. In a nutshell, say a person is born in a high caste family but has an IQ of a shoemaker, I do not recommend that he work on nuclear engineering — it would a disaster to mankind.

I have been suspect of the declining quality of Indian education. For instance, I have observed a trend – India’s new gen is becoming more literate but in general lacks world class comprehension and analysis skills. That’s disturbing given where India’s neighbor is headed with education:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/13/world/asia/13iht-educSide13.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/12/science/12deepsea.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

Unless India reforms the education system radically, it might end up with a large talent pool that keeps debating about things that shouldn’t. Be flexible and take a 3rd look – that’s all I am saying.

Anuraag Sanghi said, on September 13, 2010 at 6:06 am

Jindal – You are trotting out ‘accepted’ notions. If you are happy with those notions, good for you. If you are unhappy with what is being dished out and want to look at things another way, maybe you can to take a 2ndlook or do a Quicktake.

All your points, every one of them has been answered earlier. There is nothing, I repeat, nothing that you are saying, which has not been said earlier. I cannot feed you with answers to questions that I have already answered.

However, I am trying to say something different.

Like I said earlier, I am NOT trying to convince anyone at all. Please refrain from doing that with me

In a rude and impolite manner.

samadhyayi said, on September 15, 2010 at 5:18 pm

india ‘s new gen lacks in comprehension and analysis skills because education is not given in mother tongue.
huge stupid mistake. not because of anything else.

Incognito said, on September 13, 2010 at 2:11 am

>>>”Western political system and thought specializes in promising these useless constitutional rights and freedoms. And then trampling these ‘freedoms’ to non-existence.”

That duplicity is characteristic of every Western System- religion of “Peace”, religion of “Love”, “Egalitarian state” promised by one of the systems, “Free Markets” promised by another, “Of the people, By the people, For the people” claimed by another… the “Merciful God”, in whose name millions of ‘kaffir/infidel/pagans’ have been massacred… etc.

Good explanation of jati.

The following links also throw light on varna and jati

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=187962893&blogId=448154028

http://agniveer.com/caste-vedas/

namaste

Round 3

Jindal said, on September 13, 2010 at 2:45 pm

> That duplicity is characteristic of every Western System- religion of “Peace”, religion of “Love”

Dunno where you got that from~! Before embracing the Western system (in part or full), there is no requirement that you need to convert to some desert religion. BTW, the founding fathers were actually deists. An open secret is that locals are challenging religion more than anyone; atheism and agnosticism are growing alarmingly at double digit rates everywhere in the West. Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus are looked upon with respect as intellectuals. Basing conclusions on hearsay — a bad idea. The God facade is just that, and you won’t know that without knowing ground reality.

From the duplicitous link you’ve been pasted for education:
> V: Jaati is from birth. And not thru Karma

Once again, read what I’ve said before. Jaati is not even mentioned in the Vedas and Upanishads. Some Vedic scholars opine that the Vedas are mystically coded verses that explain sub-atomic physics, not pastoral life.

> V: God has created Jaatis…

You need to first prove God with certainty before talking about what God created:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AdKEHzmqxA

> V: I have already made it clear that donkeys, horses etc are a kind of jaatis (species)

So no need to study Y-DNA haplogroups? “V” posts in a MySpace blog that Jaati are species like donkeys and horses. The Quran also says that Jews, Christians, Hindus are pigs and apes — should you believe that because some wrote that too?

[Anuraag Sanghi: Readers – Parts of this message have been excised for reasons of using delierately offensive language.

Jindal – While I am all for ‘spirited’ discussions, please temper your language! I cannot really ‘moderate’ all the messages. People on this forum are expected to self-regulate like true Indians. We are not for ‘External’ regulation.]

Incognito said, on September 17, 2010 at 1:54 am

>>>”Dunno where you got that from~! ”
That is not the only thing that you ‘Dunno’.
>>>”Before embracing the Western system (in part or full), there is no requirement that you need to convert to some desert religion.”
It was not mentioned so. Stop hallucinating.
>>>”BTW, the founding fathers were actually deists.”
The Fa**** in heaven is also ‘merciful’ and ‘loving’. And the religion is of ‘love’ and ‘peace’.
>>>”atheism and agnosticism are growing alarmingly ”
why ‘atheism and agnosticism’ should replace ‘love and peace’ is not understood. Such lofty ideas, ‘love and peace’.
>>>”Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus are looked upon with respect as intellectuals”
Yes, heard they changed the lines in Koran and Bible that says all unbelievers should be massacred. Now it says all unbelievers other than ‘Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus’ only should be massacred.
>>>”Basing conclusions on hearsay — a bad idea.”
True.
Sould read up on the latest ‘insertions’ in Bible and Koran, and listen to preachings in churches and mosques.
>>>”Once again, read what I’ve said before.”
You mustn’t torture people repeatedly.
Once should be enough.
>>>”You need to first prove God with certainty before talking about what God created”
Author of that post is not imposing it upon you.
While posting that link, what was said was- “The following links also throw light on varna and jati”.
Nobody is compelling you to accept everything in that article.
That author has the freedom to publish his/her article on the net. You may read it or not, that author is not obligated to prove to you anything. And s/he is not seeking to convince you anyways.
>>>”“V” posts in a MySpace blog that Jaati are species like donkeys and horses. The Quran also says that Jews, Christians, Hindus are pigs and apes ”
Koran is considered word of god by millions of indoctrinated creatures, the absolute word, which they are supposed to live by.
The author of that article does not claim s/he is messenger of any god, does not impose his/her opinion upon anybody, unlike you and other monotheists who ‘Dunno’ anything but selfish aggrandizement.
namaste

Round 4

Jindal said, on September 15, 2010 at 10:34 pm

@samadhyayi,

> yes the young shankaracharya went around preaching for revival of brahmin polity and caste system. nothing better for shankaracharya to do.

India was all Buddhist at that time. Anything other than Advaita (call it Buddhist-Hinduism) could not be sold to the masses. While Shankaracharya’s intent was genuine in preserving Vedanta and he was successful, he had perhaps not envisioned that some other purely (pun intended) dimwit brahmins would devolve it so badly from Vedanticism to today’s Hinduism. Solved one problem, we got another big one.

> indian subcontinent has not given undue importance to religion. it has given importance to truth.

Truth is great. But take a close look — the Indian subcontinent is far from living the truth. IMO, if anyone believes they are more ‘pure’ than the rest, I say send them to Pakistan — the land of the (?)pure~! 😉

> so you want india united like china. for what .people unite to kill others.

So you want India to get balkanized for the white man or the yellow man to come in the name of trade and make fights along fault lines and rule India all over again? Be careful what you wish for — China is coming right after they have taken over the entire pacific in the 21st century.

> no body is dwelling on the past and singing glories of the past. proof:there are zero movies on india’s glorious past. nobody knows even a 5% of india’s past glory.

If no one knows 5% of India’s glory, that’s okay — keep it preserved in archives for the right time. However, that does not justify trying to live in the past like the Pakis do. Let’s learn to live in the present. Losers live in the past. Winners learn from the past and work toward the future. And by all means, no one is stopping you or anyone from acquiring reasonable literary skills to go write a book, or make a documentary on India’s 100% past glory for educational purposes to learn from the past. What’s all that whining all about?

> if india does not remain india. this world is not worth living, not worth discussing, not worth creating. it becomes infinitely uninteresting. a mere anthill in the huge universe.

Vedanta talks about universal brotherhood. We can’t get this simple truth implemented within today’s India geographical boundaries, let aside the anthill of an Indian subcontinent. Churchill once said the India is no more a country than the equator. What becomes of India depends on whether she produces intellectuals going forward or continues with her long decline. That’s where the best possible education comes into play.

> india ‘s new gen lacks in comprehension and analysis skills because education is not given in mother tongue. huge stupid mistake. not because of anything else.

Mandarin holds China together. English holds India together. That’s a fact. I have nothing against English as it is also a cousin within the vast family of Indo-European languages or more aptly — Sanskrit derivatives. A majority of the world’s scientific knowledge exists in English textbooks. Retrograde visions such as education in mother tongues would be the idea of making several little disconnected xenophobic Yemens within India, and fostering pugnacious tendencies between various tribes. A really bad idea!

samadhyayi said, on September 17, 2010 at 2:16 pm

@jindal

>> Anything other than Advaita (call it Buddhist-Hinduism) could not be sold to the masses.

what makes you think that the masses bought the advaita.
how can you assume that anyone was trying to sell anything.
it just didnt work like that in india. People are not foolish. this is stupidest thing that scientists do. for no good reason they assume that people in the past were stupid. epidemic stupidity is a modern phenomenon. the early man had to be a genius to invent religion.
ok coming back to indian masses. the people who perform cheap tricks of magic are not worshipped in india.

>>he had perhaps not envisioned that some other purely (pun intended) dimwit brahmins would devolve it so badly from Vedanticism to today’s Hinduism.

what do you mean by today’s hinduism.
are you complaining about murthi puja.
vedantism and murthi puja are not contradictory.
deterioration and misunderstanding of high truths is inevitable. you should be more tolerant towards mediocrisy and misunderstanding. for if every one were as intelligent as you there would be a lot of competition for you.

more over ..
the rishis are whoever they were . they envisioned a lot of everything that was going to happen in the future. i dont mean they envisioned computers, etc,etc. but they knew the nature of the world. the cycles of creation and destruction, growth and deterioration.

if you closely study the rituals, the rules, the literature, the temples, the architecture, position, timing of festivals, what things are uphelded . what are given less importance ,etc in india. then you would see how brilliant and visionary these people were.

>>balkanisation of india

i will make it clearer.
when people are too eager to unite. they usually kill those who do not conform to them . try to assimilate people. so let us not unite for the wrong reasons.
let us unite for good reasons.(this unity should not mean that we drop our diversity) the kind of haste that you exhibited in concluding old indian history/tradition/knowledge as irrelevant is the sort of sign for haste to unite for bad reasons.

>> concentrate on science and technology not islam and enlightenment, english

if you had read indian stories from the puranas and the lives of yogis and bhaktas . you would have known that greed even if it be for enlightenment isnt going to get you any success. so actually reading and spending more time on our traditional stories,
literature, etc. gives us more balanced view of the world with lots of relevance to many ranges of problems.

i can tell even more. the so called science and technology had its roots in religion. these were people seeking immortality that created science and technology.

people in the past even poor folks used to enjoy five star quality fresh air and beauty ofnature. now a days only the super rich(or some lucky people who live near such places) numbering less than one lakh enjoy beauty of nature.

mandarin might hold china together but it is my love for my country’s past(its ideals and its actions) that makes me wanna die for it.

and that was what that drove our freedom fighters not english.
english does not unite india it makes us perpetual slaves of native speakers of english.

ROUND 5

Jindal said, on September 17, 2010 at 4:03 pm

@Incognito,

>>>”Dunno where you got that from~! ”
> That is not the only thing that you ‘Dunno’.
Unlike you, I’m not poorly educated neither am I presumptuous.

>>>”Before embracing the Western system (in part or full), there is no requirement that you need to convert to some desert religion.”
> It was not mentioned so. Stop hallucinating.
First off, the blog post and the whole discussion here was all about the the validity of an Indian tradition in contrast to some Western viewpoints, and not religions. Then you came along and said — That duplicity is characteristic of every Western System- religion of “Peace”, religion of “Love”. So you branched off into “other” religions, not me.

>>>”BTW, the founding fathers were actually deists.”
> The F****** in heaven is also ‘merciful’ and ‘loving’. And the religion is of ‘love’ and ‘peace’.
No one likes Abrahamic religions and that’s great. Check out content from these sites:
http://truthbeknown.com/
http://godisimaginary.com/
http://faithfreedom.org/

>>>”atheism and agnosticism are growing alarmingly ”
> why ‘atheism and agnosticism’ should replace ‘love and peace’ is not understood. Such lofty ideas, ‘love and peace’.
Go smoke hash in a church or mosque or temple for all I care. Intellectuals in the West and even in the East recognized long ago that religion is for suckers. It is the opium of the masses. In a nutshell, the masses (still) don’t get it. Do I need to say more?

The reason why average IQ on the Indian subcontinent is 20 points behind oriental nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations) is the preoccupation with religions (which clearly seems to be the case with you and many others here who just don’t seem to get it). Fact is fact. Learn to live with it.

Correlation of IQ with predisposition to religiosity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LynnHarveyNyborg-CountryBelieveGod-Intelligence.svg

>>>”Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus are looked upon with respect as intellectuals”
> Yes, heard they changed the lines in Koran and Bible that says all unbelievers should be massacred. Now it says all unbelievers other than ‘Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus’ only should be massacred.
“Now it says…” — no it does not say that. You say that based on childish assumptions in your head. Your comprehension, cognition, and analysis skills are so markedly poor. Stop making baseless inferences. And learn to get past religions. Okay?

>>>”Basing conclusions on hearsay — a bad idea.”
> True. Sould read up on the latest ‘insertions’ in Bible and Koran, and listen to preachings in churches and mosques.
How dumb can you be? I’ve said all along that the focus should be on science and technology and you keeping rapping back to the Bible and Koran. You seem to obsessed with those two books. Get some more [scientific] books to read before posting some more meaningless idle babble. Why are we even discussing what’s not relevant to the above blog post?

>>>”Once again, read what I’ve said before.”
> You mustn’t torture people repeatedly. Once should be enough.
What school did you go to? Can you read and understand sentences in the English language? What an ‘Incognito’ indeed~!

>>>”You need to first prove God with certainty before talking about what God created”
> Author of that post is not imposing it upon you.
If your are down on chips or facing analysis paralysis, you want to get away by saying the author isn’t imposing and call me names instead, eh? The author blogs to promote his views. You must be naive to believe that this isn’t so. Apparently, out of some deep hidden veneration of the Brits and the Moghuls, the author also lauds big frauds like Bernie Madoff and Syed Masood — read my comments on his other post:
http://quicktake.wordpress.com/2010/09/09/india-on-the-way-to-police-state/
In contrast, the erudite R.K.Bajaj of the Lemon-TV just exposed Masood’s Rs. 35,0000 crore scam in his latest video blog entry here:
http://www.therkbshow.com/video/the-rkb-show-city-limouzines-masood-laundered-millions-to-the-us.html

> While posting that link, what was said was- “The following links also throw light on varna and jati”. Nobody is compelling you to accept everything in that article.
When Vedantic, Buddhist, and Jain scholars heavily debated philosphy in Nalanda and Taxila or in the caves of Ajanta and Ellora, it was based on pure logic and reason. Scientific quest for truth is the crux of Indian traditions, not blindly following one scripture or another without analysis. There was no such thing as yours can’t hold up to the fire of truth and hence let’s just call it a truce and say that no one was compelling to accept it anyway.

> That author has the freedom to publish his/her article on the net. You may read it or not, that author is not obligated to prove to you anything. And s/he is not seeking to convince you anyways.
The author has the freedom to promote his ideas, but a commentator can’t logically refute the contradictions and hypocrisy, or simply state axiomatic truths. Blogging and commenting is like openly debating ideas via an online public square. Suppressing or silencing opposing viewpoints and driving them away is so like the ways of radical Islam.

>>>”“V” posts in a MySpace blog that Jaati are species like donkeys and horses. The Quran also says that Jews, Christians, Hindus are pigs and apes ”
> Koran is considered word of god by millions of indoctrinated creatures, the absolute word, which they are supposed to live by.
Just in case you didn’t know about ‘political’ Islam: http://www.politicalislam.com/tears/pages/tears-of-jihad/
For all hypocrites out there or blind followers of any religion for that matter, let them come out with logic (if there’s any) to back up whatever they are trying to promote. If they are not promoting Islamic ideology, then let them live by it or go bury their heads in the sands of Arabia – who cares?

> The author of that article does not claim s/he is messenger of any god, does not impose his/her opinion upon anybody, unlike you and other monotheists who ‘Dunno’ anything but selfish aggrandizement.
Again assumptions. When did I say what kind of theist I am or not? What I’ve said is that science and technology have proven to benefit mankind. On the other hand, God can’t be proven and hence giving too much credence or importance to unproductive ideologies results in backward societies, of which there is clear evidence.

> V: God has created Jaatis…
You need to first prove God with certainty before talking about what God created:
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AdKEHzmqxA
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCoTGTRfDy0
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIttENo2eOM

Incognito said, on September 19, 2010 at 7:10 am

>>>”Unlike you, I’m not poorly educated neither am I presumptuous.”

Irony.

>>>”Then you came along and said — That duplicity is characteristic of every Western System- religion of “Peace”, religion of “Love”. So you branched off into “other” religions, not me.”

The complete sentence was-
“That duplicity is characteristic of every Western System- religion of “Peace”, religion of “Love”, “Egalitarian state” promised by one of the systems, “Free Markets” promised by another, “Of the people, By the people, For the people” claimed by another… the “Merciful God”, in whose name millions of ‘kaffir/infidel/pagans’ have been massacred… etc.”

Any sane person with decent grasp of English will understand that ‘religion of peace and love’ are identified in that statement as western systems, which share the characteristic of duplicity along with other such western systems such as communism(promises egalitarian state while essentially turning people into slaves), capitalism(advocates free markets while actually capturing markets), democracy(claims to be ‘for, of and by people’, but actually takes away power from people for five year terms and vests it with duplicitous greedy politicians).

Of course it takes some amount of intelligence to understand.

>>>”> “why ‘atheism and agnosticism’ should replace ‘love and peace’ is not understood. Such lofty ideas, ‘love and peace’.”
Go smoke hash in a church or mosque or temple for all I care….”

There is a word ‘sarcasm’.

Those who are unable to understand its meaning also display inability to recognize irony in their own statements, like- “Unlike you, I’m not poorly educated neither am I presumptuous.”

The point made was that ‘love and peace’ are nice sounding labels. But, reality practised by cultists of those religions is something else. Similarly, the label ‘atheism and agnosticism’ does not necessarily mean that what is inside the package is what is on cover.

>>>”The reason why average IQ on the Indian subcontinent is 20 points behind oriental nations is the preoccupation with religions (which clearly seems to be the case with you and many others here who just don’t seem to get it).

Interesting display of irony, yet again inadvertently.
Who “just don’t seem to get it” is evident.

>>>”Correlation of IQ with predisposition to religiosity”

By that yardstick animals might rank high as Intelligent beings, them having no predisposition towards religion!

It seems quite possible that some animals may well be more intelligent than some Quixotic fellows on the net who display severe inability to comprehension.

>>>”> “Yes, heard they changed the lines in Koran and Bible that says all unbelievers should be massacred. Now it says all unbelievers other than ‘Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus’ only should be massacred.” — no it does not say that. You say that based on childish assumptions in your head. Your comprehension, cognition, and analysis skills are so markedly poor. Stop making baseless inferences. And learn to get past religions. Okay? ”

Repeat- “Your comprehension, cognition, and analysis skills are so markedly poor.”

The irony involved throughout this fellow’s comment is much like the contradictions seen in the text books of bible and koran, where the almighty merciful loving gawd instructs people to kill unbelievers.
such ‘mercy and love’.
such ‘comprehension, cognition, and analysis skills’.

>>>”>>>”Basing conclusions on hearsay — a bad idea.”
> True. Sould read up on the latest ‘insertions’ in Bible and Koran, and listen to preachings in churches and mosques.
How dumb can you be?…”

The statement in his earlier comment- “Basing conclusions on hearsay — a bad idea” was preceded by the statement-”Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus are looked upon with respect as intellectuals”

That is again nice irony. Because, the aforementioned peoples are still classified kaffir/infidels and recommended to be slaughtered by koran and bible. So obviously the fellow made that statement based not on facts in those texts, not based on what mullahs and clergy preach to their flock. In short, the fellow made that statement based on hearsay.
Yet he is unable to realize his own contradiction.
To top it all, he brings out yet another irony as he blurts- “How dumb can you be?”
Indeed, how!

The fellow is displaying severe inability to comprehension, an acute case of westernization that afflicts many ‘educated’(more like indoctrinated) people today!

About three thousand years ago Sri Buddha suggested the remedy- “appa deepo bhava“. Be your own light.

The westernized probably never heard of it.

namaste

Jindal said, on September 19, 2010 at 3:21 pm

> … ‘religion of peace and love’ are identified in that statement as western systems.

@Incognito, You still don’t get it. Begin by classifying between Western vs Eastern. And more importantly, religion vs system. Your assumption that Western religions are somehow Western systems of governance has led to your confusion.

All Western religions trace back their roots to India. Indic languages, religions, and systems are a part of the family of Western heritage, unlike Confucianism et al which are Eastern. India is the Eastern-most post of the West (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6442697523437717214#). Needless to say, Indians are caucasoids by race, not mongoloids.

Western systems are not to be confused with Western religions. As you yourself list some Western systems (along with whines):
1. communism(promises egalitarian state while essentially turning people into slaves),
2. capitalism(advocates free markets while actually capturing markets),
3. democracy(claims to be ‘for, of and by people’, but actually takes away power from people for five year terms and vests it with duplicitous greedy politicians).

None of these Western systems are theocracies. They have got nothing to do with religion. There are dozens of other systems too and none are perfect. Each system has its positives and negatives. My personal observation is that theocracies have performed the worst, whereas meritocracy (ironically, part of an Eastern system) has shown to have delivered better results than Western systems — not a surprise when educated people with higher IQ levels run the show instead of fools. Note that most systems in existence today are a blend of various systems.

Having said that, when Lee Kuan Yew tells Fareed Zakaria that he believes in ‘social darwinism’ as in “change or become extinct”, that is definitely questionable as it as has seriously scary connotations (political and racial) given China’s expansionist overtures:

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/2010/09/summer_davos_in_1/

Regardless of the system adopted by a nation-state, if it doesn’t put national security first, then it is as good as anarchy, and invites foreign aggression.

Incognito said, on September 20, 2010 at 1:45 am

>>>”Your assumption that Western religions are somehow Western systems of governance…”

It is you that is assuming that there is such an assumption.
Don’t read what is not written. stop hallucinating.

>>>”All Western religions trace back their roots to India…. India is the Eastern-most post of the West”

Yeah. and Gawd is true. and ‘m the son of Gawd.

because Dr brown says so.

>>>”Needless to say, Indians are caucasoids by race…”

Yeah.
Thats why half of Northeast is not considered part of India.
And so-called tribals are also not considered Indians. of course, the madrasis too. those dravidian elamites!

>>>”Western systems are not to be confused with Western religions”

Yeah. one is for self-aggrandizement, other is for self-aggrandizement. not to be confused.

>>>”None of these Western systems are theocracies. They have got nothing to do with religion.”

But of course, islam and christianity are “religions”!
established by the gawd in heaven.
Yes.

>>>”There are dozens of other systems too and none are perfect.”

Of course, only son of gawd is perfect, isn’t it ?

>>>”when educated people with higher IQ levels run the show instead of fools”

‘educated’, like Dr eminent economist Shri MMS and PC.
Yes. education is very uplifting. ‘IQ’ too.

namaste

Round 6

Jindal said, on September 20, 2010 at 3:42 pm
@Incognito, China’s Sun Tzu said that real victory is to win without waging a war. Their ploy and real soft power as the Chinese have projected over centuries is to send over people into faraway lands to mongrelize the locals. Result of the Trojan horse is the Northeast — troubling to digest but this is what we have. If there has been a long race of genes out there, that doesn’t mean that it should not be considered part of India as you seem to suggest. China has a mammoth 50 million new Chinese diaspora in the Southeast, in addition to centuries of sneaky infiltration and blending in. Eastern Russia looks like virtually Chinese territory pending annexation sometime in this century.

The US has been after resources for as long as it can afford to, but the reason for PLA flexing its superpower muscles against the US is both resources and expansionism:
http://english.epochtimes.com/news/5-8-4/30974.html
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-8-8/31055.html
http://english.epochtimes.com/news/5-8-5/30931.html

Manmohan Singh went to West looking for investments and then to Saudi Arabia for some petrodollars to help build road and rail infrastructure. Came back with zilch. His ministers are now making trips to China and they are more than happy to build a hundred roads, which obviously gives them good entry points throughout the region previously guarded by the mighty Himalayas. If the plan succeeds, India which has more recently displayed cultural affinity to the East (for whatever reasons) would truly become Eastern i.e. more like the North-East, within a millenium or two at most.

@Anuraag, Regardless of a variety of systems in practice today (the isms), the undercover philosophy isn’t about gawd (nor freedom and progress). Then what? Like it or not, it is ‘social darwinism’ going into the future — survival of the fittest. And that’s why national security gets the top spot as I’ve pointed out before. And what strengthens national security? Science and technology. Gawd (of any kind) is left out for the incognito / clueless masses to worship or fight over. In fact, a Chinese intellectual has openly come out and said, “We are silent atheists who would like you all to fight over in the Middle East for as long as possible.” The rest is to be understood.

Incognito said, on September 22, 2010 at 2:13 am

>>>”China’s Sun Tzu said that real victory is to win without waging a war.”

Jesus said to love thy neighbour, show the other cheek. ‘Christians’ have been following that ever since.

>>>”Their ploy and real soft power as the Chinese have projected over centuries is to send over people into faraway lands to mongrelize the locals.”

Why they stopped short of Nort East is not known.
Probably they send the Tribals and Dravidians to rest of the country to ‘mongrelize the locals’.

It is true that there are mongrels in India today. But, they are westernized mongrels, some of which think they share common origin with west.

>>>”Result of the Trojan horse is the Northeast — troubling to digest but this is what we have.”

True. all these Trojan mongrels.. the dravidian elam, tribal maoists, muslim jihadis, north east christians… They have nothing to do with western theories of Indo Aryan(Aryans purportedly came from outside and occupied India, thus ‘Indo-Aryan’)-Dravidian divide created by western colonialists, nothing to do with western theory of communism, western theory of islam, western theory of christianity, western ‘democratic’ political system that is current, all propagated by the westernized sepoys and brown sahibs.

Nothing at all.

>>>”If there has been a long race of genes out there, that doesn’t mean that it should not be considered part of India as you seem to suggest.”

What ‘seem’ to you is not what is.

>>>”Manmohan Singh went to West looking for investments …”

Where would he go but west, highly ‘educated’ that he is.
like some sepoys who provide web links parroting western masters.

>>>”If the plan succeeds, India which has more recently displayed cultural affinity to the East..”

flights of fancy are not related to ground reality.

>>>”Regardless of a variety of systems in practice today (the isms), the undercover philosophy isn’t about gawd (nor freedom and progress). Then what? Like it or not, it is ‘social darwinism’ going into the future — survival of the fittest.”

Thats the new religion this sepoy is convert of.
The only true gawd and his messiah and the system and the kingdom of gawd to come in future got a makeover.
The latest in the long list of makeovers westerners have introduced- judaism, roman empire, christianity, islam, protestantism, capitalism, communism, nazism, fascism, democracy, atheism, rationalsim, agnosticism, ‘social darwinism’…

namaste

Anuraag Sanghi said, on September 20, 2010 at 11:33 am

I think Jindal’s ‘disagreement’ captures the entire essence of the problem.

The System – Call it theocracy, democracy. Maybe you prefer one of the ‘isms’ – communism, capitalism, feudalism, socialism.

Of course, these days, there is a new God. Freedom and Progress. West kills people by the millions in the name of progress, freedom (Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan)

The end results are same. People lose control (become slaves /employees). Wealth is concentrated. Freedom is always promised – it is always in the distance. The collusive few control the ‘system’.

BTW – Good going Incognito!

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3 Responses to Secular Right Versus Bharatiya – An Interaction

  1. ZIM –

    Highly appreciate your effort to analyze these exchanges – and see a pattern to them.

    This analysis can be sharper and cutting, if the element of systemic momemtum is factored. Corruption, governance deficits which exercize you so much (correctly) are a feature of Desert Bloc systems that are being forced down our throats.

    See how The State of Pakistan has been waylaid by the Anglo-Saxon clique.

    These cycles as per traditional Indian historiography, of the Puranas,
    can stretch over long periods. The current cycle of Desert Bloc resurgence started with concentration of wealth (read gold) in the hands of Desert Bloc Masters from 1200 AD onwards. But the dramatic reduction of gold reserves in the hands of Desert Bloc Masters (and their followers) in the last 50 years, is unforeseen.

    If that dilution continues, we will soon see the implosion of the Desert Bloc

    The Westernization bug is so widely and deply embedded, that even we may not be completely immune.

    Once again, thanks for your time and efforts.

  2. Prashanth K.P. says:

    ZIM, a fantastic post with valuable inputs from Jindal, Samadhyayi, Incognito & Anurag. A few lines from me without disturbing the essence of the valuable perceptions of the aforesaid persons.

    The marriage between politics and religion has thrown open avenues that can be adopted to suit individual traits. While monolothic religions like Islam and Christianity are largely dogmatic and rigid in principle and teachings, Hindus have easily amalgamated into this alliance. However, this ease has brokered a fundamental twist amongst the Hindu beliefs thereby creating a confusion between politics and religion, sometimes wedded, at times divorced. Since there has been no authoritarian governance monitoring this alienation, Hindus have drifted away to a rather comfy zone of religious ignorance. Islam and Christianity, being brilliant business houses themselves, effectively avoided this wedding between politics and religion and drove in a faith obnoxiously rigid and fearsome. Fridays and Sundays were dedicated days for religious practices and adhered to with diligence by a fearful community.

    Ignorance may be bliss, but not quite when you don’t have any religious identity. This identity draws the parameters of success versus failure to a large extent. Hinduism has successfully created enough confusion in the minds of the followers of alien faiths who have chanced to come across them earlier and who rule over it now. They have, through their able management, endeavored to create enough conflict and confusion among the Hindus. Discovering this ignorance and dispelling it should automatically lead to clearing the confusions and resolving the inherent conflicts.

    Belief in God has sustained mankind for millennia. Faith and adoration of gods and goddesses has fulfilled a practical necessity in the lives of millions of the ordinary Hindus. It would be naive to even suggest that the Hindus did not or could not conceive one God, the Supreme.

    As Lord Krsna says in the Bhagavad Gita (4.11; 7.21) the HE, the Supreme Lord, will respond to the devotees in whichever form they worship HIM and in whichever way they approach HIM.

    This is the philosophical basis for this polytheism , that which is being pursued by BJP and RSS equally. I reckon @Incognito brings out the best observations/arguments/debates in this context.

    Hope my views don’t contradict the essence of the subject. Good one Zim.

  3. vasudevan says:

    India is not any other nation,when we say India it is the Hindu Spirit which is Vasudeva Kudumbam.
    Did any other culture talk about this?
    If we care to know How Zoroastrians from Iran (parsis)
    came to Gujarat? and how the King treated and gave shelter will understand the Hindu spirit
    Well known lawyer Jethmalani ji said ” in a republic majority give up some rights to accommodated the minorities” Is this gesture appreciated or Mis used?
    Parliamentarian felt “sarsvati vandana” is not secular!!!! and refused.
    People talk the biggest Holocaust happened to Jews during world war 2,One will have a different impression once he reads Francois Gautier a famous French writer
    The problem in North east increased after independence after unchecked conversions by Christian missionaries
    The coastal areas are getting attention.
    Freedom is precious and safeguarding it is no easy task

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